Women in Leadership: a conversation with Dannie-Lu Carr

Dannie-Lu Carr is a senior training consultant and executive coach who specialises in Women’s Leadership, Personal Impact and Creativity in Business. She is the founder of Flaming Leadership, the arm of her organisation which specialises in women’s leadership and gender parity, and the founder of Creative Wavelengths, a linguistic and diagnostic tool for Creativity and Innovation in relation to Organisational Behaviour. In addition, Dannie is a published author, speaker, acting coach, singer/songwriter, actor and an award winning theatre director. For fun and sanity she is a keen Crossfitter and competitive amateur Strongwoman.

Writing about women’s lives in a work-related setting is something we’ve gone over many times. But the final spark for us to write a piece about women leadership, was the inspiring workshops we, the Laika-crew, attended, organized and led by consultant Dannie-Lu Carr on female leadership. 

Dannie's enthusiasm and kindness, combined with her expertise and knowledge made the workshop into a truly educational, enriching experience.

In celebration of this year’s International Women’s Day, we met up with Dannie for a conversation, in which we shed light on leadership, working women, confidence, pressure, roles of women in society and making positive changes.

So, here’s to all working women on this beautiful day: women who make dinners in kitchen’s at night, women who educate kids in classrooms, women who run tech companies, women who connect people through PR... We hope this interview inspires you! 

Fien: Hi Dannie!  As an introduction, would you like to share a little bit about yourself? Which words would you use to describe yourself? 

Dannie: Sure! How I would describe myself: I’m a senior training consultant,  an executive coach. I'm also a multidisciplinary creator: I'm an author, musician, a theater director, a performer. I'm not a painter though but that is on the list - laughs. And I would say, as a woman, I’m a feminist and I’m passionate about gender parity, equal opportunities and representation. I’m very driven and headstrong about that, much to some people’s distaste. Gender equality is an important conversation and I think we fall easily into the conversational “it's not as bad here as in other countries”. And, yes that's true, but that doesn't mean that there is no work to be done: in Europe, in the UK, there is a lot of work that needs to be done. In the States as well. I'm very driven about that and I love that my work and my passion have become one. So, that's me in a nutshell, I think.

Fien: What experiences made it possible for you to become the woman that we look up to today? 

Dannie: Quite a bit of hardship actually.. I believe that you only get in life what you are meant to get, what you can handle, even though it's really tough sometimes. So, I faced a  lot of adversity and a lot of hardship as a woman, as a northern working class woman, as someone that didn't have the privilege of money and didn’t have the privilege of any of that stuff. And so I've worked hard and I’ve always been curious, I’ve always loved to read and liked to question everything: “why is that like that?”. I’ve always challenged authority, which used to get me in trouble when I was younger - laughs. But that really served me as I grew in my adulthood and in my career. I'm a trained actress and a trained director, and I have won awards which I'm really proud of. And that theater and performance background has given me the skills to dig deep on courage when I'm scared. When I think that I'm too nervous to do something, I learned to think : “I’m going to do it anyway”. From that training, I am able to push myself onto a stage and speak out even when my voice is shaking. 

Fien: The workshop we attended was “Women stepping up to lead”, and we discussed several topics. Can you remind us: what is your message to women, not just in PR, but all working women (women teaching in schools, CEO’s, women in activism…) that want to take a step further in their careers, want to grow, want to become “leaders”, or who already are leaders but feel uncertain sometimes?  

Dannie: The first thing that I said was: we all feel scared sometimes. It has been proven that we live in a world that knocks girls down from a really young age. Right now, the conversation is about why girls at school tend to outperform boys and at the same time, men dominate the workplace, that doesn't make sense. But the real conversation is about women being undermined a lot, women getting spoken over a lot, girls getting spoken over a lot. We, as women, get told to be preoccupied by what we look like. And there is nothing wrong with wanting to look great, that's fab! As long as it is not just that. So it’s about learning to speak up, even if you are frightened. It’s learning to be the role model, if you can’t see the role model. A lot of women don’t step up, because in their earlier life, they didn’t see enough evidence of women doing that. So, there is this unconscious assumption that comes in, that it's going to be hard and challenging because “I am a woman”. And that may or may not be true, but it shouldn't be the reason to not be the change that we need to see in the world. So it's about being careful of the narrative we tell ourselves, don't be the victim or try to be the superwoman, it's okay to be normal, it’s okay to be flawed, it's okay to screw it up: but do it anyway. That message is key to women in leadership.

Fien: After reading this year’s report of the “Women in the Workplace 2020” study we couldn’t move our minds away from the stories we just read about. The research sheds a light on the difficulties women face at work and shows that women have to deal with a disproportionate number of negative effects of Covid-19 at work, such as the risk of being laid off. The societal aspect of women facing hardships at work, which might result in quitting or being laid off, is of great significance. It seems like we as a “society” don’t care that much if we lose women at the workplace because we don’t consider them as leaders and future changemakers. What are your thoughts on this? Why are women not being perceived as leaders?

Dannie: I think it’s about a lot of complex issues, there are many reasons. Some of them I'm well placed to talk about and some of them I'm not. These studies involve women of color, and I’m white, so I'm not the one to talk about that. What I do know from my black friends and from what I can see in the world, is that last year was particularly hard for people of color, because during the Black Lives Matter conversation, they were not only trying to conduct their roles, but also defending themselves throughout this conversation and navigating some of the prejudices that are unconscious. That's all I can say, because when it comes to women of color in the workplace, you should ask them about their experience. But then there is also the conversation around women still being seen as mothers, and I recently had a quite heated debate on LinkedIn about this. I don't like to debate online, but I felt like it was really important. It was a picture of the woman behind Bumble and she just became the youngest self made billionaire. Which is brilliant! But, in the picture, the woman had her young child in her arms, and the article said “this is what a woman leader looks like today”. And that really rattled me, because that is what some women leaders look like today, but not all women leaders look like that. 
And there is this issue around women, motherhood and career. In corporate environments, it was sometimes being said - and I heard it -  “well, she will go off and have babies”. And I thought, ”Hang on! Do you know that about her? She might not be able to have them, she might not want them, and she may have a really awesome plan in place to have babies and have a career”. We have to change the model, to accommodate women who are parents. I’m not a parent, for example, so my challenges are different. They’re neither harder nor easier, they’re just different. So, we need to have that conversation. 
Some women are mothers and some women aren’t. And, also some men are fathers. Women are not the only child carers. I think that’s why women are being looked at differently and that is why it’s so easy to say “we will replace her” or “we will get a man instead” and that’s not okay. 

Fien: We also came across a Harvard Business Review article about the research of Zenger and Folkman. They conducted a study on who’s seen as a better qualified leader during a crisis. The outcome? Women are better leaders during difficult times. They noticed that people highly appreciate interpersonal skills such as “inspiring, motivational, and powerful communicator”. Why are these qualities often overlooked and not taken seriously in society? And also: women are better leaders during a crisis, because they communicate, they show their emotions, but we personally think that men should also develop those qualities. 

Dannie: Right, totally. Yes, we can learn from each other. And that’s what the female leadership conversation is about: we need to be in it together. We shouldn’t just be having the conversation with women. This is why I love Laika, we (the women) had our workshop, but I’ve also worked with the guys. We had a slightly different conversation, but they made one whole. We have to ask ourselves: which human is right for this job? Not which man, which woman, which gay woman, which straight woman… Just: what human is right for this job. For example, strength is seen as a “male” attribute - I say that very loosely because, who's to say they’re male and who's to say they’re female - but we need to bring it together with the more collaborative, communicative and nurturing approach, that often comes from women. It’s about the yin and the yan, finding the balance and learning from each other. 

Laura: I would like to add that the soft skills that women use to handle crises are often the soft skills that are overlooked and that we think are not necessary in the workplace, because they are not useful, not “technical”.

Dannie: I agree, and you said that very well, Laura. It’s the fact that they're called soft skills even… There is nothing soft about standing up and speaking your truth. There is nothing soft about pushing back and saying “no”, there is nothing wrong with saying “i’m going to walk out of this negotiation because this isn’t right for us”. They’re not soft skills, they’re quite robust skills to have. Resilience cannot work without compassion. And resilience is the most important leadership quality. 

Laura: During the workshop, we also discussed how to break through the female archetypes that keep us stuck, and how assertive communications is a key element in solving this. We talked about the concept of a “superwoman” (is a woman who plays several time-consuming social roles at once, such as those of worker, housewife, volunteer, student...). What would you advise to women who feel the need to be this kind of perfect and do-it-all woman? To women who experience a lot of pressure? 

Dannie: There’s a couple of things I would say. One is: put yourself first. We, as women, are not conditioned to put ourselves first. If a woman puts herself first, she’s given negative connotations: “she’s selfish”, “she’s a bitch”. Advertising, movies and media depicts what a “superwoman” looks like, and she’s always toned and tiny, with perfect make-up… I don’t know what you look like when you’re running around, but my make-up is down my face - laughs. Being a “superwoman” is a fantasy, and to try and put ourselves under the pressure to achieve this fantasy, is making us fall short. 

So I would say, the main things are: give yourself time out, listen to what you need, and also: look at yourself to validate what you're doing. Be who you are! And if we listen to ourselves and tune in with what we need and what our passions are, then that allows us to show up in the world authentically and with the strength to be a good leader. 

Laura: What do you hope that people who attend your workshops will learn, will remember? Which aspect of your story, your workshops do you hope will inspire people? 

Dannie: I hope people see me as a normal woman. A five foot one, curvy, northern woman with tattoos - laughs. I want them to look at me and say  “she’s standing up there and doing it, so I can stand up and do it”. I hope that my cheekiness and my sass will give people a little bit of courage to go out and do it. I hope people get that the main message is to support each other and grant each other opportunities. There’s enough out there for everyone to be able to be brilliant. If one of your fellow women is brilliant, it doesn’t mean you’re not, it just means you’re brilliant in a different way. And once girls, guys and people who don’t identify with the male and female gender start to support each other, we can all learn from each other.

Laura & Fien: Thank you so much Dannie!